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14 July 2013 @ 09:26 pm
I want to quit Facebook  

"I want to quit Facebook"

That's the status I wanted to post just now.

But it's probably not for the reason that many of my friends will guess.  Because people post too much?  Sorta.  Because it's so time-consuming?  Partly.  Because remembering birthdays are now only a Facebook alert away?  Most definitely.  But not only that.

Because of Feminists.

Don't get me wrong... I do not condone mysogyny.  Mistreating women is not a cool thing to do.  I should know; I am a woman after all.  BUT... I am really fucking sick of one small event where one woman didn't put down clear boundaries or one man decided to be a creeper for 10 minutes too long and suddenly, my wall EXPLODES with 25 links to the same article/video/picture/comment of said event and every fb friend and their mother has to put their foot down to say "THIS IS WRONG OMG WOMEN ARE NOT OBJECTS".  Of course, every one of these posts will have about 20 comments supporting this point of view.

"Women should be able to wear whatever they want without being hit on/filmed/having booty shots taken of them".
"Men should learn more self control".
"Saying this is the woman's fault is like saying that rape is the woman's fault for wearing sexy clothes".
"It's not enough for the guy to apologize, he committed a wrong."

There's nothing wrong with the comments themselves.  People are entitled to free speech.  I just do not like to get hammered with this for 20 hours on Facebook every time some mundane event occurs in settings that I have intimate experiences with (university, anime conventions, gaming conferences).

A college girl has sex with her boyfriend (NOT a random guy) and regrets it.
A girl wearing a sexy cosplay has someone take pictures/video of her boobs/butt.
A girl in the gaming industry gets hit on/belittled at a gaming conference.

These types of events are not great things to experience (once again, I would know) but THEY HAPPEN.  ALL.  THE.  TIME.  Right right, this doesn't make it "correct" or "okay".  But what's the point of blaming the male race every time one of them decides to make an ass of himself?  None really, except for women to feel self-entitled to special treatment because they are woman (honestly I find this ironic) and recruit others to subscribe to Feminism.  I'm generalizing Feminism, obviously, because I'm not really interesting in differentiating the different types; I'm just annoyed at the result on my Facebook page.

I have my reasons for disagreeing with most of the general consensus on the previously referenced events, that I don't want to spend too much time on.  All I will say is that right now, the general issue with most of people involved with creeper incidents is that they are afraid of and/or inexperienced with sex and engaging with the opposite gender (or the same gender) when they are attracted to someone. If people were less afraid of interaction/rejection and went out to on a limb to ask people on dates (within reason lol), I think they would learn social cues to prevent "creeper behavior".
In addition, people need to understand context in a far less ideal way than they seem to.  If a woman goes to a bar, even if you are promoting a game or whatever, she CANNOT expect men to clear away from her because she is "strictly business" and has a boyfriend or whatever.  Bars serve the purpose of serving alcohol to people so they can socialize and/or hit on people.  Sure, a woman may desire to discuss game mechanics with someone and not receive only comments about her boobs, but there's little reason to become offended if that's all she gets.  People are drunk and she probably DOES have a damn fine rack.  I'm NOT saying that she should submit to men hitting on her.  She can always say no, and learn some self-defense moves if he's persistent.  There are arguments that people are afraid to cause a scene, as if that's a legitimate reason not to reject someone.  If a guy really won't leave you alone and you care enough about your well-being, you should not hesitate to slap him hard. However, there is no reason to cause a scene every time someone asks you for your number.  But, I digress.

I don't hate Feminists, although I'm obviously not one.  My Facebook, however, is so inundated with people who are that I'm pretty uncomfortable with voicing my opinion on any of these subjects related to women, despite being one.  So the more I see these posts along with the infinite statuses related to them, the more I really want to quit.  But at the same time, I want to keep up with friends and know about events (in THEIR lives, not crazy people on the news).  Wade through the crap on Facebook or quit it altogether?  It's an age-old dilemma.  Well, at least as old as Facebook.
Jasonslave_to_anime on July 15th, 2013 07:29 pm (UTC)
Dilemma as old as humanity, just simply made worse since the internet. The number of people who take their opinions way too strongly in public is just ugh. :|

For now, I'll pick the generic angle, since I'd rather not touch the particular subject you're talking about at this time (sexuality being one of the 4 taboo topics I try to avoid discussing openly).

The price of being a member of society is that every once in a while, you'll have to hear the opinion of someone you disagree with. On the one hand, it's unfortunate that everyone can't agree with each other, but on the other hand, the world would be boring otherwise.

You can, if you so choose, unfollow or not display those people who you believe to be unusually strident in their opinions all the time. But honestly, the far better tactic is to just scroll past if you can't take it, or else actually read it, consider it in context of what you know, and either apply it or solidly deny it.

If the solution to not wanting to deal with disagreement is to cut yourself off from socializing, it's not going to be healthy in the long run. No need for a nuclear option when a precision surgical strike is sufficient.

Also know that there are some people out there to whom it's possible to have a fair and reasonable debate on opinions with. Though generally, that forum shouldn't be the internet.
Alice: lady antebellumtenshiyaki on July 17th, 2013 08:40 am (UTC)
I think the issue for me at this point is that I've done exactly that (scroll past the stuff) for months and months... to the point where if I'm not discussing these topics, I feel out of touch with facebook friends. And these are supposed to be my friends so I should be able to express myself freely right?

Another thing that has been happening is that a person makes a comment irl and they act as if their opinion is the expected/normal/right one. And then everyone in the group mostly agrees so I could speak up and express myself, but I'd really rather just ignore the opinion. But then I feel like people are missing out on a part of me.

All in all, I think I just have an extreme aversion to argument/disagreement because of a childhood where my parents argued almost everyday. As a matter of fact, they still do. -_-;
Yoshiko-chanyoshikochan on July 16th, 2013 08:25 pm (UTC)
I am curious about this mysogyny event. (Link? Since you have so many lol.)

I do not go on facebook except to track friends events and use the messaging system (since so many people are only on facebook). It's convenient when I meet new people to connect with them (like Yuna at Anime Expo).

- I'm not sure how a college girl regretting sex with her boyfriend is connected to mysogyny. D:

- I personally find it flattering when a guy takes a photo cause he thinks I'm cute. Who cares where the camera's focused? It's just a picture. Guys are allowed to look, so long as they don't touch, that's the rule. It annoys me when girls think it's creepy for a guy to look or think they're cute or whatever. It should be flattering. Girls dress up half for the attention (somewhat from other girls, yes, but also because guys treat you better), so I really don't get why this has to be denied. I look at guys. I doubt they mind. ?

- Girl getting hit on = always ok, even though of course, a lot of girls don't know what to do. If the guy is persistent, that's another story, but I think any guy who tries is gutsy and that's admirable in its own way. Girl getting belittled, not so cool. But it's never kind to belittle anyone. :/

In the scope of things, you are a feminist, by many cultural standards. You think women should have equal work and education. You think they shouldn't be stuck doing all the cooking, cleaning, child bearing and raising. You think they should be able to dress how they like - up or down, revealing or conservative. Even without going to rallys for these things, you believe in all of them because you live in them. We already live in a fairly equal society (here in America, anyway... we still have some issues, but they don't appear that easily).

The problem with the term feminism is it's been twisted and abused until it no longer means equal rights for women, but "let's complain about men".

But yay, welcome back to LJ! Forget Facebook, lj ♥

Edited at 2013-07-16 08:25 pm (UTC)
epiic (SpookyElectric): clausepiic on July 17th, 2013 05:27 am (UTC)
Really, your FB didn't get super-spammed too?

I'm guessing Alice is talking about that thing with some guy basically telling some cosplayer girl that he thinks most girls are full of drama and so he doesn't want to be friends with them, while at the same time hitting on her. She gets pissy (logical reaction - dissing girls in general while talking to a girl - not sure how he expected anything else), guy gets mad and suggestions violence toward women.

Instead of talking to police, girl spams internet. This results in other girls trolling said guy, just making things worse. (If anything, giving him more reason he should hate women)

What kinda bugs me most about the whole thing is that _both_ sides IMO are in the wrong. But I feel in most venues you can't say that without being attacked because it's wrong to "blame the victim", even if you're really blaming both sides. (and really that's a problem with arguments everywhere - why must it be A vs B if they both suck?)

But FB has such crazy high level of noise vs worthwhile content. I don't know how this case is any different. I agree - it's best features are messages & events.

Edited at 2013-07-17 05:37 am (UTC)
idprism: QoH99seidprismindigo on July 17th, 2013 07:56 am (UTC)
that drama thing, plus the guy taking a butt shot of some random cosplayer walking around, plus some other random things about guys generally being pretty normal and not harmful at all and girls not just complaining, but calling on the internet, the police, and their social circles to enact "justice". it was worse for tenshiyaki than myself because she is friends with the social circles (cosplayers and artists) who will, naturally, side with the girl (their friend) in whatever disagreement/argument.

(edited to clarify subjective nature of justice in this context, names)

Edited at 2013-07-17 08:09 am (UTC)
Alice: maayatenshiyaki on July 17th, 2013 09:11 am (UTC)
Oh... actually I don't know about that event. It really sounds like he was awkwardly trying to compliment her and make her feel special but failing pretty badly. -_-;; Honestly, I kind of wish I could teach guys (this isn't even limited to otaku/nerds anymore) how to talk to girls because they seem to be doing worse and worse. OH WAIT... is this the guy whose pf pic is in a military uniform?

Yes, that is also often the case. It really makes me lose faith in humanity lol.

I'm mostly just talking about my social circle. It just seems that my assortment of fb friends include many who subscribe to a certain more liberal train of thought and are especially inflamed whenever "womens' rights" events come up. Actually in terms of politics/news/misc info posted, I have very little issue with it because it apparently doesn't have as much popularity.
Yoshiko-chanyoshikochan on July 17th, 2013 02:49 pm (UTC)
I really don't read my newsfeed. ^^;

Sometimes, I feel like people just comment to be like, "Yeah of course I support you/am not sexist!" It was like the hoodie thing with Travon Martin... it was hard to tell who was genuinely sympathetic, and who was just, "look at me, I'm wearing a hoodie so therefore I'm totally not racist!" It may be subconscious on some level, and I'm sure some people honestly feel as strongly as they appear to, but I think a lot of it is over-dramatized for this reason.

It's as you say, you can't say what you want without being accused of something. Yes, there is a culture of victim blaming (like in the case of those high school football players), but you can't excuse the woman just because she was the girl in the situation. If both sides are to blame, then that's how it is. Well, this is the most I'm hearing about the situation (from you) but it sounds like she's proving his point.

Yes, FB noise... and friends aside, I have my mother re-posting 10 items a day, so I really don't read my facebook feed...
idprism: QoH99seidprismindigo on July 17th, 2013 07:59 am (UTC)
no, tenshiyaki is not a feminist. a feminist believes that women are weak and need social and regulatory assistance to stand on equal ground with men, among other things. she is something better than that. i used to be a feminist, but im not one anymore. i have more faith in women than i used to, because i have met many more over the years.

(edited for names)

Edited at 2013-07-17 08:02 am (UTC)
Yoshiko-chanyoshikochan on July 17th, 2013 02:10 pm (UTC)
T__T You're just arguing about the definition of feminist.


Hm... that one could be interpreted either way. But I still don't see believing women should have equal rights as men = women are weak and must therefor have assistance to be equal.

Given your definition though, I'm not a feminist either. I've talked about this with other women engineers, and we can't remember a time we felt discriminated against or disadvantaged in our field. Nor do I expect any advantages by being a women (like affirmative action type), in fact, it makes things worse when people think you got your job because of what you are instead of what you're capable of.
Alice: suzakutenshiyaki on July 17th, 2013 03:23 pm (UTC)
I agree with you about not feeling discriminated against or disadvantaged in the professional field. Although, I do feel as if I have certain advantages in some situations. I'm pretty sure I got my last 2 receptionist jobs mainly because I'm a woman (I'm sure dressing up helped). In fact, one of the jobs ONLY hired women... which is pretty unethical but for a position where 90% of the applicants are women anyway, I suppose it's not as urgent? And it was a shitty job anyway lol.
idprismidprismindigo on July 17th, 2013 04:10 pm (UTC)
insane people are afraid of agressive people, and guys have a higher chance of being aggressive.

its never unethical to hire exactly who you want to hire. ever. no matter what the government says. its only unethical to ask employees to dress sexily or make continual advances on them when they explicitly state said advances are unwelcome. also taking advantage of superior status (employer over employee) to coerce behavior in general (not just sexy dress) is unethical. last one is inappropriate and unwelcome touching.
Yoshiko-chanyoshikochan on July 23rd, 2013 05:24 pm (UTC)
I had a fun conversation with my roommate last night (O's girlfriend, who is awesome and into cinematic Marvel), and she was telling me that she knows for sure that she was hired for her position because of her looks. She said there's only 5 guys at her work (out of like 30), 3 are execs, and one called her in and told her to wear more make-up (she is always dressed 100x nicer than I am ... AT HOME when we're ready for bed LOL).

So obviously discrimination still exists. But I mean, she's still working there. It's not like they've felt her up or anything. The ones who are in the crap shoot are men who can't get receptionist jobs as a result.

As you say in your comment below, it's a matter of assholery.

But again, I don't see this at my own work: we do have a few male administrators, and I'm pretty sure it's proportional to who applied for the jobs in the first place.
idprismidprismindigo on July 17th, 2013 04:02 pm (UTC)
when i say among other things, many people who call themselves feminists typically also believe that women should be held blameless for their own behavior when it results in their anguish, that women's appearance should be dismissed (whether they put effort into an image or not), that women essentially dont have the right to choose to meet a self-defined standard of beauty, that women should get preferential treatment when it comes to jobs and salaries, and more.

having met and seen more women over the years, i can definitely say that women tend to be weaker than men in a few areas, but stronger in others; none of these areas warrant special treatment, though.

so, i consider myself post-feminist.

btw, i was reminded of act 2 of episode 220 of this american life (thislife.org, http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/testosterone) this weekend. it is amusing to hear about a man's life from a woman's perspective. i think if more women bothered trying to understand that guys are different instead of attempting to make men equal to women or women equal to men, the world would be much better. of course, when i say things like this i am accused of being misogynist, patriarchal, closed-minded, etc by aquantainces who consider themselves feminists. it is those very people who refuse to understand who constantly flood facebook with inane posts and comments and circularly support each other in their opinions. (yeah, there are days i want to quit, too)

Yoshiko-chanyoshikochan on July 25th, 2013 02:34 am (UTC)
I only skimmed through the text, but actually, I've heard this before. In college I took a sociology class and they played a tape of this, both about the guy who lost his testosterone and the woman who started taking it. I remember it vividly: how the guy stopped eating anything of variety, and how the woman started thinking vividly about sex (women in a sexual way). Sociology courses really changed the way I think, and this audio in particular had a huge effect on me.

I'm fairly aware of how much hormones change my personality as well, especially after listening to it. (I'm pretty sure our cat Inu has such a bad personality because his health problems are throwing off his hormones / making him feel sick ... we're putting him down on Friday cause he's been getting more sick :'< ).
Alice: ryuutenshiyaki on July 17th, 2013 09:03 am (UTC)
Hah... I was so scared of comments from people who talk to me regularly irl but I think I just hate conflict/disagreement.

Oh the mysogyny thing was somewhat unrelated now that I look back lol... I guess I've been accused of being one back in art school and it's just ridiculous. But I mean, any kind of spousal abuse is obviously wrong.

The college girl regretting sex with her boyfriend was referring to that USC event. That's more related to the definition of "rape" and if I ever commented on any post about that event, I don't know if friends would look at me the same way. Honestly, my GREATEST fear is that people will think I was brainwashed by someone (which again, I've been accused of).

For the sexy cosplayer issue, a lot of peer cosplayers are angry due to guys who take video without permission or that take pictures of someone's butt. If you don't go on fb often, you may not have seen but there was some kind of video channel that posted videos they had taken of cosplayers (somewhat focusing on boobs, apparently? video was taken down before I saw it) using a hidden camera. In common sense, it was a dick move so the group took down the video. But then the cosplay community exploded with comments on the group's fb page calling them horrible and treating cosplayers as objects and yadda yadda and I just remember the one comment where someone said it wasn't enough that they took down the video and apologized. I'm just in disbelief at how vindictive people seem to be.

The girl getting hit on thing was strange because it's like a game industry-specific thing. As if girls in the gaming industry were being targeted because a couple of guys in the field were making assholes of themselves by assuming they didn't actually work on games. When I was promoting a game I worked on at E3 last summer, it happened once or twice to me where people asked if I was some kind of model promoting the game. All that really happened was that I informed them that I worked on it, and they became embarrassed. I think, though, some guys are rude about it, but they are likely just not accustomed to working with girls?

Hm... my viewpoint on it is that gender should be a non-factor. There's no point in comparing whether women are doing better or as well as men because they are different and will naturally and biologically have different specialties. I think standards have been warped and twisted to have connotations, but it's much more objective than people think. What tends to irk me is when people reject standards and expectations because they are actually lazy or they simply don't try. I'm not even sure if this applies to the topic anymore so I'm gonna stop here lol...

I really appreciate LJ now~
Yoshiko-chanyoshikochan on July 17th, 2013 02:42 pm (UTC)
I know how you feel. I actually censored myself on a recent post because I knew most of my lj friends would not agree with me on the whole Travon thing (just that it's overblown and people should get over it T__T). *sigh* I like debating but I don't like arguing with people I know won't agree with me no matter what (you just end up angry at each other in the end).

Any kind of abuse is wrong, spousal or not. I think the only reason it's a bigger deal for guys to attack girls, is because guys are physically stronger than girls (and typically more aggressive due to testosterone).

I have a co-worker friend whose crazy wife (that he won't divorce for their children *sigh*) was throwing things at him, and then she called the police. The police showed up, realized very quickly that she was crazy, and gave my friend some simple advice: not to touch her. Cause she can throw crap at him, but if he even slaps her he'd be the one getting arrested. :/ Honestly, it's a problem when women get more leeway. I just don't know how to reconcile stories like this with the fact that yeah, a guy can seriously do some damage, while I doubt I'd even leave a scratch if I tried to attack someone. OTL

Oh, AX tweeted about that, I didn't hear the whole story though. I agree with you, total over-reaction. Get over it. I want to see the video now out of curiosity. OTL More than being disgusted, I feel like whoever did it is pathetic for needing to. I look down on him more than being angry. But that's just my personal reaction.

:P I still think you should be flattered that they thought you were a model (and you did model for that loli company, so cute XD). I wouldn't be surprised if a girl wearing jeans and a t-shirt, slightly heavy, not wearing make-up and with her hair pulled back, would be assumed to have worked on the video game or be a gamer. Even more than gender, dress/appearance has a lot to do with assumptions people make about you. I just don't think it's a big deal. Even as a girl, I'd probably make the same assumptions. And if you're told that you're wrong, then it's just like, "Oh I was wrong, it's cool that you worked on the game!" Stereotypes are a part of life, and people have to deal with that, or change them by making them not true (e.g. lots of girls start working in the game industry *shrug*).

I completely agree with your viewpoint. (Even if I didn't, you should be able to post about your real feelings. ^^) I do have one boss at work, P, who's genuinely sexist & racist. T__T He told me of his five children, that the one girl among them (2nd oldest) was the best at dealing with the other kids because as a girl, she is the "motherly". *roles eyes* She's like... 7. Her older brother, I observed myself, was very good at helping with the younger kids. T__T

Errr... anyway, yeah, it's that kind of think. I'm not more nurturing because I'm a girl. If I am, it's because my mother raised me to be, possibly because I'm a girl, but it's a nurture thing verses genetics.
idprism: QoH99seidprismindigo on July 17th, 2013 04:30 pm (UTC)

this looks pretty legit. the video is fun and it looks like he told most of the girls what he was doing.
Yoshiko-chanyoshikochan on July 25th, 2013 01:07 am (UTC)
Commentary while watching the video:

Pft I don't see the problem. I'd say most of those girls are very proud of their bodies. :/ I don't have enough cleavage to get a goprohug. Well, I'd say it comes down to whether or not the girls in the videos don't approve or not. But man... how do they have bodies like that.... OTL

(Minus the few who were obviously padding.)

I don't know though, I can't tell if they camera was hidden or not, seems like it? It would really be a matter of if it it's consensual or if the girls care or not. I'd say some of those girls definitely don't care, some might have. (Hm, watching further into the video, they obviously know the camera is there.)

Mixed feelings. It's kind of a weird thing to care about, but hey I've never been into cleavage so what would I know. As long as the girls knew they were getting filmed in that way and were cool with it, then who cares?

I can see why people were offended though. We live in a society that's half crazy conservative, and half has this conception that appreciating a woman's body is the same as putting her down. Not that there aren't people who only see boobs and not brains, but it is possible to see both (probably? I don't see why not).
idprismidprismindigo on July 25th, 2013 03:43 pm (UTC)
the worst part is the facilitation/enabling. AX posted a response saying that their "hearts and prayers" went out to the "victims" and that they are attempting to get this guy prosecuted by the police. disgusting. when institutions enable like that, theres no reason for people not to behave the way they do.
Yoshiko-chanyoshikochan on July 30th, 2013 04:33 pm (UTC)
Yes, that's the first I heard of it (on AX twitter) ~ I was like, 'hearts and prayers' what are we a church group now? T__T But now after watching it, I just feel like... SERIOUSLY over-reaction... I wonder if AX will seriously go to the police.
idprismidprismindigo on July 30th, 2013 05:32 pm (UTC)
im sure they already did, and im sure the police said 'lol nothing illegal here'. almost 100% sure.
Yoshiko-chanyoshikochan on August 1st, 2013 04:52 pm (UTC)
T__T My understanding of the legal system is the 'victims' directly have to press charges (AX can't do it on their behalf, just cause it happened at their event). Obviously the girls who let the hug happen were cool with it, and the girls who didn't, how do you press charges for nothing that happened?

Unless you're just upset to have appeared in the video at all, but even then I'm not sure how the legalities of that work. It's probably just a lack-of-waver thing at most (like how they always make you fill out a waver if your picture MIGHT appear online. Dramaelf says that at Disneyland, you agree to have your picture posted when you buy your ticket, since anyone may incidentally appear in promotional material.)
idprismidprismindigo on August 1st, 2013 05:02 pm (UTC)
theres no waiver for public space, and the halls at ax are essentially public space. police cant do anything. lawyers cant do anything. those guys werent doing anything illegal, whether or not someone believed it was in good taste. they dont deserve to be hounded by the law for what they did (and, i personally think they dont deserve to be bothered by anybody beyond a civil and constructive criticism - which they are not getting. they are getting hammered)
Alice: soujitenshiyaki on July 17th, 2013 09:16 am (UTC)
On another related note, I had this period in my life during college where I felt complete discouraged because I was a woman. There were many girls in my art classes at USC but when I took classes outside of college, I was often the only girl. This made me feel like gender must be a factor because girls didn't proliferate in serious art classes, so I must have a lesser chance of succeeding... lol.

And then I came out of that to realize that it should not matter what I am in relation to my art, but most of all, it shouldn't bother me.
Yoshiko-chanyoshikochan on July 17th, 2013 02:16 pm (UTC)
I remember you talking about that, because you drew pictures of nice/sexy? looking women and the people in your class were like "why do you objectify women". T__T They completely don't understand what they're talking about. There's nothing wrong with wanting a woman to look pretty/sexy/whatever, and you can draw whatever you like. It objectifies women more to be like "women cannot be sex symbol". After all, the most sexist countries force women to dress the most conservatively.

XD; I've been the only girl in classes. I didn't think about it that much XD;; but I was worried when I first started working, that if I dressed in a skirt/not very business-y, I'd be mistaken for a secretary. (I'm really, really over that now. Both because I don't think it's a problem, and because I don't care even if I am.)

I almost think that because sexism is taught about so strongly when we're children, we become hyper aware of it as adults. Not that it doesn't exist in many places, but we start seeing it where it isn't.
Alice: arieltenshiyaki on July 17th, 2013 03:29 pm (UTC)
hahaha I wanted to "like" this post until I realized I'm NOT on facebook.

Actually, this wasn't so much related to comments about my art as much as internal observations I made about people/situations around me. I was at an unstable state where I didn't know if what I was doing in any class would be enough for me to work in animation and I wanted to transfer to Art Center. In addition, most if not all, of my favorite artists were male. I think my discouragement from gender (adding to my lack of self-confidence in my artwork) was more a side effect of this uncertainty.

Yeah really... it's all about people calling assholery "mysogyny".
idprismidprismindigo on July 17th, 2013 04:10 pm (UTC)